Origin of 'shirty'
Mike Etherington
In UK English 'shirty' means 'angry' I know. What I don't know is why -
anyone know the origin?
Thanks
Mike
www.effingpot.com
The Christmas Book
Robert M. Wilson
Mike Etherington wrote in message <3831DA...@effingpot.comNOSPAM>...
>Chaps,
>In UK English 'shirty' means 'angry' I know. What I don't know is why -
>anyone know the origin?
Probably comes from the older, "Keep your shirt in/on."
Someone who is disheveled and has his shirt out is upset or angry,
Michael West
Robert M. Wilson <r...@island.net> wrote in message
news:80t75...@enews2.newsguy.com...
What was supposed to come after that comma?
Nah, I think it comes from the way blokes grab each other's shirt fronts
when they want to get tough.
Tom Lawson
We have the same expression in Oz.
I must have a dirty mind. I have always assumed it was a
euphemism for "shitty".
--
Regards,
Tom Lawson
Justice on the Edge is a book about crime and punishement in
Western Australia, a magical place with a only few flaws. One of
these is the highest property crime rate in the Western World.
Visit the JOTE Website at:
http://users.highway1.com.au/justice/
Ross Howard
<mi...@effingpot.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>Chaps,
>In UK English 'shirty' means 'angry' I know. What I don't know is why -
>anyone know the origin?
It's not so much "angry" as "stroppy" (which I've always liked to
assume -- on no grounds whatseover -- is a corruption of
"obstreperous"; I now see with glee that the OED thinks I may have a
point).
By the way, does "ornery" mean the same thing over there as
"shirty"/"stroppy" over here?
Ross Howard
Donna Richoux
I don't think so, although it's hard to say because "shirty" and
"stroppy" are not US words. "Ornery" means "cantankerous," if you have
that one. Irritable, quarrelsome, contrary, disagreeable. Often used of
old men, who are not likely to swing actual punches.
Doesn't "shirty" refer a temporary condition of anger? And does
"stroppy" suggest belligerent? Thorndike-Barnhart defines "obstreperous"
as "noisy" or "unruly."
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Anandashankar Mazumdar
> Michael West wrote:
>> Robert M. Wilson <r...@island.net> wrote in message
>> news:80t75...@enews2.newsguy.com...
>>> Mike Etherington wrote in message
>>> <3831DA...@effingpot.comNOSPAM>...
>>>> In UK English 'shirty' means 'angry' I know. What I don't know is
>>>> why - anyone know the origin?
>>> Probably comes from the older, "Keep your shirt in/on." Someone who
>>> is disheveled and has his shirt out is upset or angry
>> Nah, I think it comes from the way blokes grab each other's shirt
>> fronts when they want to get tough.
I'll have to disagree with all of you. I think it's a reference to
a man removing _his own_ shirt prior to engaging in fisticuffs. Think
about those old movies in which one guy is annoying another guy. The
annoyed guy first gets "hot under the collar" and eventually starts
tugging at his shirt and making belligerent noises at the other guy
whereupon this guy says, "whoa, keep your shirt on, fella; it's not
what you think."
Ananda
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
a1a5...@sprint.ca
wrote:
>Ross Howard <ro...@granada.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:28:42 +0000, Mike Etherington
>> <mi...@effingpot.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>>
>> >Chaps,
>> >In UK English 'shirty' means 'angry' I know. What I don't know is why -
>> >anyone know the origin?
>>
>> It's not so much "angry" as "stroppy" (which I've always liked to
>> assume -- on no grounds whatseover -- is a corruption of
>> "obstreperous"; I now see with glee that the OED thinks I may have a
>> point).
>>
>> By the way, does "ornery" mean the same thing over there as
>> "shirty"/"stroppy" over here?
>
>I don't think so, although it's hard to say because "shirty" and
>"stroppy" are not US words. "Ornery" means "cantankerous," if you have
>that one. Irritable, quarrelsome, contrary, disagreeable. Often used of
>old men, who are not likely to swing actual punches.
>
>Doesn't "shirty" refer a temporary condition of anger? And does
>"stroppy" suggest belligerent? Thorndike-Barnhart defines "obstreperous"
>as "noisy" or "unruly."
>
>--
>Best -- Donna Richoux
"Shirty" seems to define a temporary condition, usually one produced
in reaction. "Stroppy" defines a more permanent sort of condition.
It is the difference between, respectively, the raising of hackles and
the habitual biting of ankles which is being drawn. I define the
matter thus because of my natural disinclination to use mankind in
exemplo. Now for the Animal Rescue League....
Perchprism
>From: a1a5...@sprint.ca
>Date: Wed, 17 November 1999 10:43 AM EST
>Message-id: <3832ccce....@news.sprint.ca>
>
>On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:02:26 +0100, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
>wrote:
>
>>Ross Howard <ro...@granada.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:28:42 +0000, Mike Etherington
>>> <mi...@effingpot.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>>>
>>> >Chaps,
>>> >In UK English 'shirty' means 'angry' I know. What I don't know is why -
>>> >anyone know the origin?
>>>
>>> It's not so much "angry" as "stroppy" (which I've always liked to
>>> assume -- on no grounds whatseover -- is a corruption of
>>> "obstreperous"; I now see with glee that the OED thinks I may have a
>>> point).
>>>
>>> By the way, does "ornery" mean the same thing over there as
>>> "shirty"/"stroppy" over here?
>>
>>I don't think so, although it's hard to say because "shirty" and
>>"stroppy" are not US words. "Ornery" means "cantankerous," if you have
>>that one. Irritable, quarrelsome, contrary, disagreeable. Often used of
>>old men, who are not likely to swing actual punches.
>>
>>Doesn't "shirty" refer a temporary condition of anger? And does
>>"stroppy" suggest belligerent? Thorndike-Barnhart defines "obstreperous"
>>as "noisy" or "unruly."
>>
>
>in reaction. "Stroppy" defines a more permanent sort of condition.
<snip>
OK, then, "scrappy" would be American for "stroppy," but perhaps not as
negative. "Shirty" eludes me, unless you allow the Yiddish "Ungablutzen"
(spelling?).
--
Perchprism
(southern New Jersey, near Philadelphia)
Liz & Andy
<a1a5...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:3832ccce....@news.sprint.ca...
> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:02:26 +0100, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
> wrote:
>
> >Ross Howard <ro...@granada.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:28:42 +0000, Mike Etherington
> >> <mi...@effingpot.comNOSPAM> wrote:
> >>
> "Shirty" seems to define a temporary condition, usually one produced
> in reaction. "Stroppy" defines a more permanent sort of condition.
>
That could be a regional thing. In London, stroppy is often used in
sentences such as 'Her secretary's a right stroppy cow'; 'Watch out for the
boss, he's in a really stroppy mood' or 'He's got a real strop on.' I'd
say it's more often used as a synonym for moody or the Midland's 'mardy'.
Liz
Frances Kemmish
In my part of the Midlands, "stroppy" means argumentative, and someone
who is "mardy" is a cry-baby.
Fran
Einde O'Callaghan
>
> On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:28:42 +0000, Mike Etherington
> <mi...@effingpot.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>
> >In UK English 'shirty' means 'angry' I know. What I don't know is why -
> >anyone know the origin?
>
> It's not so much "angry" as "stroppy" (which I've always liked to
> assume -- on no grounds whatseover -- is a corruption of
> "obstreperous"; I now see with glee that the OED thinks I may have a
> point).
>
> By the way, does "ornery" mean the same thing over there as
> "shirty"/"stroppy" over here?
>
"bad-tempered, awkward to deal with" and "ornery" means "of poor
quality; coarse, unpleasant, cantankerous". While it's possible to argue
on this basis that "stroppy" and "ornery" are synonyms, this is not the
case with "stroppy" and "shirty".
You might get shirty with someone because they are stroppy, but that's
cause and effect.
--
eo'c
Joseph C Fineman
>"Ornery" means "cantankerous," if you have that one. Irritable,
>quarrelsome, contrary, disagreeable. Often used of old men, who are
>not likely to swing actual punches.
In my ideolect, "contrary" comes closest to being a synonym.
Pointlessly, meanly uncooperative.
It is amusing that "ornery" is a worn-down form of "ordinary". A
judgement of the human race is implicit in it.
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: To feel guilty is to be afraid of being punished. To feel :||
||: ashamed is to be afraid of doing it again. :||
Donna Richoux
> > Michael West wrote:
>
> >> Robert M. Wilson <r...@island.net> wrote in message
> >> news:80t75...@enews2.newsguy.com...
>
> >>> Mike Etherington wrote in message
> >>> <3831DA...@effingpot.comNOSPAM>...
>
> >>>> In UK English 'shirty' means 'angry' I know. What I don't know is
> >>>> why - anyone know the origin?
>
> >>> Probably comes from the older, "Keep your shirt in/on." Someone who
> >>> is disheveled and has his shirt out is upset or angry
>
> >> Nah, I think it comes from the way blokes grab each other's shirt
> >> fronts when they want to get tough.
>
> I'll have to disagree with all of you. I think it's a reference to
> a man removing _his own_ shirt prior to engaging in fisticuffs. Think
> about those old movies in which one guy is annoying another guy. The
> annoyed guy first gets "hot under the collar" and eventually starts
> tugging at his shirt and making belligerent noises at the other guy
> whereupon this guy says, "whoa, keep your shirt on, fella; it's not
> what you think."
The problem with that is that the Pocket Dictionary of American Slang
describes "keep your shirt on" as having American origin, around 1850,
and "shirty" is quite British. Is "Keep your shirt on," meaning calm
down, used in the UK?
--
Best --- Donna Richoux
Donna Richoux
> According to COD7 "shirty" means "angry, annoyed", while "stroppy" means
> "bad-tempered, awkward to deal with" and "ornery" means "of poor
> quality; coarse, unpleasant, cantankerous".
Thank you for that last bit. We once discussed how it could be that
"ornery" derived from "ordinary" -- it definitely did, but there was a
missing step. I can see how "ordinary" grade material could come to mean
"coarse, unpleasant, not very good."
(Sometime I want to compile those words, like mean and common and rude
and vulgar, that over the centuries have shifted up and down the scale
of approval.)
Frances Kemmish
>
> Joseph C Fineman <j...@world.std.com> wrote:
>
> > It is amusing that "ornery" is a worn-down form of "ordinary". A
> > judgement of the human race is implicit in it.
>
> ornery man." But as Einde O'Callaghan's post appears to say that
> "ornery" meant "of poor quality; coarse, unpleasant" -- which I assume
> applies to *things* -- before it meant "cantankerous". I can imagine
> people saying, "Oh, you don't want any of that ordinary (ornery) linen,
> it's too coarse, get their highest grade."
>
> Then after it came to mean coarse and unpleasant goods, it was applied
> to people. That's how I read it, anyway.
>
> Aren't there still areas of life where "ordinary grade" is still a
> classification of quality? And is it always considered satisfactory, or
> has it sometimes fallen to below satisfactory? I can't think of any
> examples, for sure.
>
The first thought that came to mind (can't imagine why) was vin
ordinaire, but of course that's not English, anyway. The exams we used
to take at the age of fifteen were 'O' Levels, and the 'O' stood for
ordinary, but they don't exist any longer. The only other use of
'ordinary' that I could call to mind is even more obsolete: it was a
kind of tavern which sold a meal at a fixed price.
So, none of the examples I can think of seem to fit.
Fran
Ross Howard
wrote:
>Ross Howard <ro...@granada.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:28:42 +0000, Mike Etherington
>> <mi...@effingpot.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>>
>> >Chaps,
>> >In UK English 'shirty' means 'angry' I know. What I don't know is why -
>> >anyone know the origin?
>>
>> It's not so much "angry" as "stroppy" (which I've always liked to
>> assume -- on no grounds whatseover -- is a corruption of
>> "obstreperous"; I now see with glee that the OED thinks I may have a
>> point).
>>
>> By the way, does "ornery" mean the same thing over there as
>> "shirty"/"stroppy" over here?
>
>I don't think so, although it's hard to say because "shirty" and
>"stroppy" are not US words. "Ornery" means "cantankerous," if you have
>that one.
Yes, got that one.
>Irritable, quarrelsome, contrary, disagreeable. Often used of
>old men, who are not likely to swing actual punches.
Aha. So it's more "crotchety" than "shirty", then. (Textiles, we got
'em.)
How would you disrtinguish between "ornery", "grouchy" and "grumpy"?
>Doesn't "shirty" refer a temporary condition of anger?
Yes, as does "stroppy". It's not anger, though. You can be shirty or
stroppy without any need for vein-bulging or shouting. Without getting
into a Nida-type analysis of all the elements involved, I'd say that
shirty and stroppy both involve a couple of tablespoons of stubborn
defence of one's position with a pinch of condescension added before
serving.
>And does "stroppy" suggest belligerent?
Yes, that's another ingredient. But I don't think you can really
distinguish between shirty and stroppy, other than syntactically.
"Shirty" is only really used in a verb phrase with "get", while
"stroppy" is often used as a premodifier. This means that "a stroppy
bastard/bitch" is commonly heard, but "a shirty bastard/bitch" doesn't
sound very idiomatic to me.
>Thorndike-Barnhart defines "obstreperous"
>as "noisy" or "unruly."
COD9 has something very similar. I think that current UK usage is
actually wider than that, though. I think you can be calmly,
tight-lippedly obstreperous -- well, you can if you really try. I
think that the "unruly" definition is probably better applied to
"obnoxious" these days (for drunken public-schoolboys, for example).
For me, "obstreperous" is more in the general, rather grey area of a
temporary "bad attitude". I'd use it for pain-in-the-arse customers in
restaurants who complain about everything, for example. In other words
people who are obstreperous aren't necessarily noisy or unruly;
they're the sort of people who snort "Don't you know who I *am*?"
while they're obstreperizing, and invite corresponding
post-obstreperosity mutterings of the "Who the hell does that
prick/bitch think he/she is?" variety.
Ross Howard
Mike Barnes
<mi...@effingpot.comNOSPAM> wrote
>In UK English 'shirty' means 'angry' I know. What I don't know is why -
>anyone know the origin?
No, but can someone remind who said - and of whom - that
they were "too shirty for their sex"?
--
Mike Barnes
Donna Richoux
> It is amusing that "ornery" is a worn-down form of "ordinary". A
> judgement of the human race is implicit in it.
I would agree with you if it went straight from "an ordinary man" to "an
ornery man." But as Einde O'Callaghan's post appears to say that
"ornery" meant "of poor quality; coarse, unpleasant" -- which I assume
applies to *things* -- before it meant "cantankerous". I can imagine
people saying, "Oh, you don't want any of that ordinary (ornery) linen,
it's too coarse, get their highest grade."
Then after it came to mean coarse and unpleasant goods, it was applied
to people. That's how I read it, anyway.
Aren't there still areas of life where "ordinary grade" is still a
classification of quality? And is it always considered satisfactory, or
has it sometimes fallen to below satisfactory? I can't think of any
examples, for sure.
--
Best wishes --- Donna Richoux
Michael West
Joseph C Fineman <j...@world.std.com> wrote in message
news:FLD3v...@world.std.com...
> It is amusing that "ornery" is a worn-down form of "ordinary". A
> judgement of the human race is implicit in it.
>
Interesting thing about that word.
Here in Oz, 'ordinary' commonly means 'lousy'.
I read an accident report in the local paper. It seems a bicycle rider
collided with a parked car. The investigating officer said "the car wasn't
damaged, but the bike is pretty ordinary." By which he meant "completely
wrecked."
Also, people who say they feel "pretty ordinary" really mean they wish they
were home in bed. It's just a notch above feeling "s**thouse".
--
--
Michael West
Melbourne, Australia
Donna Richoux
> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
>
> >I don't think so, although it's hard to say because "shirty" and
> >"stroppy" are not US words. "Ornery" means "cantankerous," if you have
> >that one.
>
> Yes, got that one.
>
> >Irritable, quarrelsome, contrary, disagreeable. Often used of
> >old men, who are not likely to swing actual punches.
>
> Aha. So it's more "crotchety" than "shirty", then. (Textiles, we got
> 'em.)
Textiles? Interesting. I've looked it up now and still don't understand
why a whim should be related to a crochet hook.
>
> How would you disrtinguish between "ornery", "grouchy" and "grumpy"?
Hmmm. It's hard to say what is the difference between being grouchy and
being grumpy. (Aren't those British English too?) However, neither one
necessarily means a permanent condition; any of us could feel grouchy or
grumpy at times. Someone who is always grouchy is a grouch. I suppose
people say "I'm feeling ornery today," but I think of it mostly as
describing someone's personality. And it may not be as negative as the
other two, it might mean something like "fiercely independent and
stubborn." Whether you dislike an ornery person may depend on whether
you are trying to get him or her to do something you want. They are
contrary individuals. Think conspiracy theorists in Montana.
Are you writing the by-laws for the Curmudgeons Club? Or did you miss
that recent discussion?
paul draper
Donna Richoux <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1e1fsaz.w7o4imikgbzbN%tr...@euronet.nl...
> <SNIP>>
> The problem with that is that the Pocket Dictionary of American Slang
> describes "keep your shirt on" as having American origin, around 1850,
> and "shirty" is quite British. Is "Keep your shirt on," meaning calm
> down, used in the UK?
>
hair on"
--
Paul Draper
Ted H.
> Ross Howard <ro...@granada.net> wrote:
> >
>
> describing someone's personality. And it may not be as negative as the
> other two, it might mean something like "fiercely independent and
> stubborn."
I've also heard ornery used in the sense of mischevious.
Ted
--
Theodore Heise <the...@netins.net> West Lafayette, IN, USA
Ross Howard
wrote:
>I would agree with you if it went straight from "an ordinary man" to "an
>ornery man." But as Einde O'Callaghan's post appears to say that
>"ornery" meant "of poor quality; coarse, unpleasant" -- which I assume
>applies to *things* -- before it meant "cantankerous". I can imagine
>people saying, "Oh, you don't want any of that ordinary (ornery) linen,
>it's too coarse, get their highest grade."
>
>Then after it came to mean coarse and unpleasant goods, it was applied
>to people. That's how I read it, anyway.
>
>Aren't there still areas of life where "ordinary grade" is still a
>classification of quality? And is it always considered satisfactory, or
>has it sometimes fallen to below satisfactory? I can't think of any
>examples, for sure.
Interestingly (well, mildly), the most common way of saying "coarse"/
"boorish"/"uncouth"/"crass" in Spanish is *ordinario*. ("Ordinary" as
in "not special" is generally *normal y corriente*.)
Ross Howard
N.Mitchum
-----
Grouchy and grumpy are usually passing conditions, brought on by a
hangover or a pretty girl's laughing at you. You can be grumpy in
the morning and cheery in the afternoon. "Grouchy" strikes me as
slightly more ill-tempered and actively anti-social than "grumpy,"
but at bottom they are the same.
Ornery is rather like a permanent state; a sort of engrained
meanness; a natural disposition to rub others the wrong way or
cause trouble. You can't switch it off so easily.
----NM
Jody Bilyeu
<1e1fukt.1lukr4n9zq1c1N%tr...@euronet.nl>...
>Joseph C Fineman <j...@world.std.com> wrote:
>
>> It is amusing that "ornery" is a worn-down form
of "ordinary". A
>> judgement of the human race is implicit in it.
>
"an ordinary man" to "an
>ornery man." But as Einde O'Callaghan's post
appears to say that
>"ornery" meant "of poor quality; coarse,
unpleasant" -- which I assume
>applies to *things* -- before it meant
"cantankerous". I can imagine
>people saying, "Oh, you don't want any of that
ordinary (ornery) linen,
>it's too coarse, get their highest grade."
Try the sense of "ordinary" that I take to be the
parent of "ornery" in the predicate adjective
slot, where it is still used today, as pure
evaluation, especially among the "genteel":
"By all means, Tipperary, avoid those Baker boys.
They are so ordinary."
It's a synonym for "common" for those who prefer
the supposedly "exceptional": this sense of
"common" is also primarily found, in its
pejorative sense, in the predicate adjective,
whereas in its pre-noun position, it might be
taken for a compliment:
"You consented to be seen with the Douglas widow?
Why, Cordelia, she's common!"
"The well-heeled Bob Dole needs to learn how to
address the common man."
Cheers,
Jody
Michael West
Jody Bilyeu <rjb...@mail.smsu.edu> wrote in message
news:Ok6qgNpM$GA.235@cpmsnbbsa05...
> Try the sense of "ordinary" that I take to be the
> parent of "ornery" in the predicate adjective
> slot, where it is still used today, as pure
> evaluation, especially among the "genteel":
>
> "By all means, Tipperary, avoid those Baker boys.
> They are so ordinary."
>
> It's a synonym for "common" for those who prefer
> the supposedly "exceptional": this sense of
> "common" is also primarily found, in its
> pejorative sense, in the predicate adjective,
> whereas in its pre-noun position, it might be
> taken for a compliment:
>
> "You consented to be seen with the Douglas widow?
> Why, Cordelia, she's common!"
>
> "The well-heeled Bob Dole needs to learn how to
> address the common man."
>
The double meaning of "common" as both "frequently-occurring" and "of low
grade or quality" is very nicely played upon by Wilde in the following
exchange from _The Importance of Being Earnest_.
[Gwendolyn, who lives in London, has come to visit her beloved, Ernest, in
the country. Disconcertingly, when she arrives at Ernest's country house,
she is greeted by an attractive young lady named Cecily. The two ladies
attempt to conduct themselves with politeness, imagining that they are
rivals for Jack's affections.]
GWEN. [Looking round.] Quite a well-kept garden this is, Miss
Cardew.
CEC. So glad you like it, Miss Fairfax.
GWEN. I had no idea there were any flowers in the country.
CEC. Oh, flowers are as common here, Miss Fairfax, as people are in
London.
It isn't on-topic, but the subsequent exchange is too good to lop off:
GWEN. Personally I cannot understand how anybody manages to exist
in the country, if anybody who is anybody does. The country
always bores me to death.
CEC. Ah! This is what the newspapers call agricultural depression,
is it not? I believe the aristocracy are suffering very much
from it just at present. It is almost an epidemic amongst them,
I have been told. May I offer you some tea, Miss Fairfax?
Jitze Couperus
(Donna Richoux) wrote:
>
> I would agree with you if it went straight from "an ordinary man" to "an
> ornery man." But as Einde O'Callaghan's post appears to say that
> "ornery" meant "of poor quality; coarse, unpleasant" -- which I assume
> applies to *things* -- before it meant "cantankerous". I can imagine
> people saying, "Oh, you don't want any of that ordinary (ornery) linen,
> it's too coarse, get their highest grade."
>
> Then after it came to mean coarse and unpleasant goods, it was applied
> to people. That's how I read it, anyway.
>
You can still see this word used in Dutch to mean "uncouth" or
lower-class. A snob might refer to someone of lesser stature as
"vreselijk ordinaire".
Jitze
John Savage
> I'll have to disagree with all of you. I think it's a reference to
>a man removing _his own_ shirt prior to engaging in fisticuffs. Think
Exactly. The late 20th century equivalent of throwing down the gauntlet.
The phrase "keep your shirt on" is well known in Australia, with it
likely being an import from Gt Britain.
--
John Savage (for email, replace "ks" with "k" and delete "n")
a1a5...@sprint.ca
Pugilists fight shirtless; Englishmen remove only _coats_ (cold there
you know, not like Oz). The Irishman thrails his coat in perpetual
readiness and the hope that somebody will tread on it and provide an
opportunity.
Martin Ambuhl
a1a5...@sprint.ca wrote:
> The Irishman thrails his coat in perpetual
^^^^^^^
"Thrail" is an interesting-looking word for which I can find no
meaning. Could you help me with this?
--
Martin Ambuhl mam...@earthlink.net
__________________________________________________________
Fight spam now!
Get your free anti-spam service: http://www.brightmail.com
a1a5...@sprint.ca
<mam...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>a1a5...@sprint.ca wrote:
>
>> The Irishman thrails his coat in perpetual
> ^^^^^^^
>"Thrail" is an interesting-looking word for which I can find no
>meaning. Could you help me with this?
>
>--
>Martin Ambuhl mam...@earthlink.net
>
The Irish have difficulty with the English 't' -- it is not an Erse
sound and it quite often comes out more or less like "th". Of course
they have difficulty with the English too.
Einde O'Callaghan
>
> a1a5...@sprint.ca wrote:
>
> > The Irishman thrails his coat in perpetual
> ^^^^^^^
> "Thrail" is an interesting-looking word for which I can find no
> meaning. Could you help me with this?
>
allegedly pronounce their "t's". As is usual with stage-Irishism it
misses the mark completely. (Where I come from we regard stage-Irishism
as a sign of pig ignorance.)
So look the word up in your dictionary under "trail".
--
eo'c
Bob Cunningham
You may come closer by looking up 'frail'.
The OED (pére) has 'thrail' as an obsolete alteration of 'frail'. It
references 'TH(6)', where it explains that 'dialectically _th_ is
sometimes substituted for _f_, and vice versa.' It also hints that
'frail' is related to 'flail', and _The New Shorter Oxford_ says:
frail /freIl/ n.2 dial.E19.
[Dissimilated form of FLAIL n.] A flail.
One definition of the verb 'flail' is 'wave or swing (an object)
wildly or erratically'.
_The New Shorter Oxford_ also has:
frail /freIl/ v.t. US dial. M19.
[Prob. f. FRAIL n.2] Beat, thrash.
Without more context, it's not clear whether a1a51640's quote can be
taken to mean that the Irishman beats or thrashes his coat, or that he
swings it about wildly or erratically. To me it seems unlikely,
though. Is there some dialectal use of 'frail' or 'flail' that comes
closer to what an Irishman might do to his coat? Brian?
Einde O'Callaghan
Since there is an idiomatic phrase "to trail a piece of clothing",
meaning to drag it behind you, and a1a51640 has been known on more than
one occasion to make barbed remarks about the Irish, I still think that
my interpretation is the most plausible.
--
eo'c
a1a5...@sprint.ca
<einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
[ ]
>>
>> >I presume it's meant to be a representation of the way Irish people
>> >allegedly pronounce their "t's". As is usual with stage-Irishism it
>> >misses the mark completely. (Where I come from we regard stage-Irishism
>> >as a sign of pig ignorance.)
>>
>> >So look the word up in your dictionary under "trail".
>>
>Since there is an idiomatic phrase "to trail a piece of clothing",
>meaning to drag it behind you, and a1a51640 has been known on more than
>one occasion to make barbed remarks about the Irish, I still think that
>my interpretation is the most plausible.
>
>--
>eo'c
>
It was indeed, but there was no reason to get shitry about it and
illustrate the pig ignorance of the "part of the world you come from".
The English 't' is quite commonly mangled by the Irish, on and off
stag. I an told that the "throd on the thrail of yer coat", as the
song has it, is wrong and the "yer" ought to be "yiz" "where you come
from", but the song-writer seems not to have pandered all the way.
Einde O'Callaghan
I get shirty about racist abuse. The Gaelic "t" is indeed different from
the English one. But in fact most Irish people are quite capable of
pronouncing the Englis "t" and actually do so.
The articulation of "th" is different in Ireland from that in Britain,
which is what leads to jokes about Irish "t"'s. However, the
articulation of the "th" sounds varies widely within England and
throughout the English speaking world. Picking on the Irish smacks to me
of racism.
After all nobody makes music hall "jokes" about the fact that South
Africans don't distinguish between the short "a" and the short "e" as in
"bat" and "bet".
>From observing your various barbed comments about the Irish I have come
to the conclusion that you are an anti-Irish bigot and I reserve the
right to get "shirty" in responding to racism.
--
eo'c
William Lieblich
>
> a1a5...@sprint.ca schrieb:
> >
[...]
> > >
> > It was indeed, but there was no reason to get shitry about it and
> > illustrate the pig ignorance of the "part of the world you come from".
> > The English 't' is quite commonly mangled by the Irish, on and off
> > stag. I an told that the "throd on the thrail of yer coat", as the
> > song has it, is wrong and the "yer" ought to be "yiz" "where you come
> > from", but the song-writer seems not to have pandered all the way.
>
> I get shirty about racist abuse. The Gaelic "t" is indeed different from
> the English one. But in fact most Irish people are quite capable of
> pronouncing the Englis "t" and actually do so.
>
> The articulation of "th" is different in Ireland from that in Britain,
> which is what leads to jokes about Irish "t"'s. However, the
> articulation of the "th" sounds varies widely within England and
> throughout the English speaking world. Picking on the Irish smacks to me
> of racism.
>
> After all nobody makes music hall "jokes" about the fact that South
> Africans don't distinguish between the short "a" and the short "e" as in
> "bat" and "bet".
>
> >From observing your various barbed comments about the Irish I have come
> to the conclusion that you are an anti-Irish bigot and I reserve the
> right to get "shirty" in responding to racism.
Don't feel singled-out; a1a is an equal-opportunity abuser.
But we need him/her/it, because he/she/it speaks the One True English.
The rest of us speak dialects.
--
Bill Lieblich
a1a5...@sprint.ca
<einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
>a1a5...@sprint.ca schrieb:
>>
>> On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 03:54:37 +0100, Einde O'Callaghan
>> <einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
>> [ ]
>> >>
>> >> >I presume it's meant to be a representation of the way Irish people
>> >> >allegedly pronounce their "t's". As is usual with stage-Irishism it
>> >> >misses the mark completely. (Where I come from we regard stage-Irishism
>> >> >as a sign of pig ignorance.)
>> >>
>> >> >So look the word up in your dictionary under "trail".
>> >>
>> [snip luckless OED "pe`re"ism from the Utan]
>>
>> >Since there is an idiomatic phrase "to trail a piece of clothing",
>> >meaning to drag it behind you, and a1a51640 has been known on more than
>> >one occasion to make barbed remarks about the Irish, I still think that
>> >my interpretation is the most plausible.
>> >
>> >--
>> >eo'c
>> >
>> It was indeed, but there was no reason to get shitry about it and
>> illustrate the pig ignorance of the "part of the world you come from".
>> The English 't' is quite commonly mangled by the Irish, on and off
>> stag. I an told that the "throd on the thrail of yer coat", as the
>> song has it, is wrong and the "yer" ought to be "yiz" "where you come
>> from", but the song-writer seems not to have pandered all the way.
>
>I get shirty about racist abuse. The Gaelic "t" is indeed different from
>the English one. But in fact most Irish people are quite capable of
>pronouncing the Englis "t" and actually do so.
>
>The articulation of "th" is different in Ireland from that in Britain,
>which is what leads to jokes about Irish "t"'s. However, the
>articulation of the "th" sounds varies widely within England and
>throughout the English speaking world. Picking on the Irish smacks to me
>of racism.
>
>After all nobody makes music hall "jokes" about the fact that South
>Africans don't distinguish between the short "a" and the short "e" as in
>"bat" and "bet".
>
>>From observing your various barbed comments about the Irish I have come
>to the conclusion that you are an anti-Irish bigot and I reserve the
>right to get "shirty" in responding to racism.
>
>--
>eo'c
>
>
That's the spirit; make 'em use a good old Irish pipe-bomb, not these
damned arrow things. Level the playing field what?
a1a5...@sprint.ca
wrote:
>Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
>>
>> a1a5...@sprint.ca schrieb:
>> >
>[...]
>> > >
>> > It was indeed, but there was no reason to get shitry about it and
>> > illustrate the pig ignorance of the "part of the world you come from".
>> > The English 't' is quite commonly mangled by the Irish, on and off
>> > stag. I an told that the "throd on the thrail of yer coat", as the
>> > song has it, is wrong and the "yer" ought to be "yiz" "where you come
>> > from", but the song-writer seems not to have pandered all the way.
>>
>> I get shirty about racist abuse. The Gaelic "t" is indeed different from
>> the English one. But in fact most Irish people are quite capable of
>> pronouncing the Englis "t" and actually do so.
>>
>> The articulation of "th" is different in Ireland from that in Britain,
>> which is what leads to jokes about Irish "t"'s. However, the
>> articulation of the "th" sounds varies widely within England and
>> throughout the English speaking world. Picking on the Irish smacks to me
>> of racism.
>>
>> After all nobody makes music hall "jokes" about the fact that South
>> Africans don't distinguish between the short "a" and the short "e" as in
>> "bat" and "bet".
>>
>> >From observing your various barbed comments about the Irish I have come
>> to the conclusion that you are an anti-Irish bigot and I reserve the
>> right to get "shirty" in responding to racism.
>
>Don't feel singled-out; a1a is an equal-opportunity abuser.
>
>But we need him/her/it, because he/she/it speaks the One True English.
>The rest of us speak dialects.
>
>--
>Bill Lieblich
Anybody who abuses opportunity, (which is always equal) gets to work
for the government. I am old enough not to be sinless, but that's one
I lack.
Einde O'Callaghan
singular "they" by a mile.
I don't mind it when he comments on English usage, it's the other bits
that make me shirty. But don't worry, I won't get too hot under the
collar.
--
eo'c
Roy Lakin
<einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
>Martin Ambuhl schrieb:
>>
>> a1a5...@sprint.ca wrote:
>>
>> > The Irishman thrails his coat in perpetual
>> ^^^^^^^
>> "Thrail" is an interesting-looking word for which I can find no
>> meaning. Could you help me with this?
>>
>I presume it's meant to be a representation of the way Irish people
>allegedly pronounce their "t's". As is usual with stage-Irishism it
>misses the mark completely. (Where I come from we regard stage-Irishism
>as a sign of pig ignorance.)
I don't know where you come from, but my wife's mother often pronounced "taught"
as "thought" and sometimes would err the other way: "t'ink" instead of "think".
She came from Dublin.
Roy
Roy Lakin
>
>In my part of the Midlands, "stroppy" means argumentative, and someone
>who is "mardy" is a cry-baby.
>
>Fran
Do I detect a Nottingham accent here?
Roy
Brian J Goggin
wrote:
[...]
>I don't know where you come from, but my wife's mother often pronounced "taught"
>as "thought" and sometimes would err the other way: "t'ink" instead of "think".
>She came from Dublin.
The second is characteristic of older Dublin accents, but the first
sounds very strange to my ear.
bjg [from Dublin]
Frances Kemmish
Heaven forfend; I'm from Derbyshire. (the Nottinghamshire side though)
Fran
Stephen Toogood
<royl...@claraFRED.net> writes
>On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:16:41 -0500, Frances Kemmish <arc...@iconn.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>In my part of the Midlands, "stroppy" means argumentative, and someone
>>who is "mardy" is a cry-baby.
>>
>>Fran
>
>Do I detect a Nottingham accent here?
>
with Nuncargate.
Fran: be gentle with him.
--
Stephen Toogood
Polar
I thought (based mostly on Irish movies and radio speakers) that the
"t'ink instead of "think" was a class marker.
Do you mean that people from other parts of Ireland don't use that
locution? And is it or not a class marker?
--
Polar
(posted and mailed)
Brian J Goggin
[...]
>I thought (based mostly on Irish movies and radio speakers) that the
>"t'ink instead of "think" was a class marker.
>
>Do you mean that people from other parts of Ireland don't use that
>locution? And is it or not a class marker?
Big subject; we could be here till Christmas.
Three points. First, there are many different local accents in
Ireland. Even within Dublin, there are (or were) several traditional
accents and there are some new ones as well.
Second, much depends on how you define class. If you take a class
system based on closeness to the British throne, you will find that
few of the dukes and earls and such spoke (recently) in Dublin
accents. If you take one based on wealth and power, you will find
several millionaires and powerful persons speaking with Dublin accents
or Cork accents or Donegal accents. Or even, God between us and all
harm, Kerry accents. At present, one of the most powerful men in the
country is Jackie Healy-Rae. His accent is a thing of beauty.
Indecipherable, but beauteous.
Third, most Englishpersons seem to be unable to pronounce the "t" in
Irish words like "ta'" and "taoiseach" correctly. Should we consider
that to be a class marker?
bjg
Jerry Friedman
tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
> Ross Howard <ro...@granada.net> wrote:
...
> > Aha. So it's more "crotchety" than "shirty", then. (Textiles, we got
> > 'em.)
>
> Textiles? Interesting. I've looked it up now and still don't
understand
> why a whim should be related to a crochet hook.
A crotchet is something you're hooked on, a hang-up--hence a whim that
you're stubborn about.
--
Jerry Friedman
jfrE...@nnm.cc.nm.us
i before e
and all the disclaimers
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Polar
<b...@wordwrights.ie> wrote:
>On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:54:54 GMT, sme...@mindspring.com (Polar) wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>I thought (based mostly on Irish movies and radio speakers) that the
>>"t'ink instead of "think" was a class marker.
>>
>>Do you mean that people from other parts of Ireland don't use that
>>locution? And is it or not a class marker?
>
>Big subject; we could be here till Christmas.
>
>Three points. First, there are many different local accents in
>Ireland. Even within Dublin, there are (or were) several traditional
>accents and there are some new ones as well.
>
>Second, much depends on how you define class. If you take a class
>system based on closeness to the British throne, you will find that
>few of the dukes and earls and such spoke (recently) in Dublin
>accents. If you take one based on wealth and power, you will find
>several millionaires and powerful persons speaking with Dublin accents
>or Cork accents or Donegal accents. Or even, God between us and all
>harm, Kerry accents. At present, one of the most powerful men in the
>country is Jackie Healy-Rae. His accent is a thing of beauty.
>Indecipherable, but beauteous.
OK, I see I made a mistake by specifying "class". Would "education"
work better? I don't want to get in too deep on this! It may be that
the "t'ink" syndrome is indeed spuriously generated by stage Irishmen,
as has been suggested elsewhere in this thread.
>
>Third, most Englishpersons seem to be unable to pronounce the "t" in
>Irish words like "ta'" and "taoiseach" correctly. Should we consider
>that to be a class marker?
Ya got me there. What occasion, to be fair, would they actually
*have* to pronounce the Gaelic word, aside from scholars for
professional reasons? As to "ta" (for goodbye), I think I've heard it
pronounced "correctly" on TV shows.
Over to you.
M.J.Powell
<b...@wordwrights.ie> writes
>On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:54:54 GMT, sme...@mindspring.com (Polar) wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>I thought (based mostly on Irish movies and radio speakers) that the
>>"t'ink instead of "think" was a class marker.
>>
>>Do you mean that people from other parts of Ireland don't use that
>>locution? And is it or not a class marker?
>
>Big subject; we could be here till Christmas.
>
>Three points. First, there are many different local accents in
>Ireland. Even within Dublin, there are (or were) several traditional
>accents and there are some new ones as well.
>
>Second, much depends on how you define class. If you take a class
>system based on closeness to the British throne, you will find that
>few of the dukes and earls and such spoke (recently) in Dublin
>accents. If you take one based on wealth and power, you will find
>several millionaires and powerful persons speaking with Dublin accents
>or Cork accents or Donegal accents. Or even, God between us and all
>harm, Kerry accents. At present, one of the most powerful men in the
>country is Jackie Healy-Rae. His accent is a thing of beauty.
>Indecipherable, but beauteous.
>
>Irish words like "ta'" and "taoiseach" correctly. Should we consider
>that to be a class marker?
My class doesn't say 'Ta'. We say 'Thank you'.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Charles Riggs
>Ya got me there. What occasion, to be fair, would they actually
>*have* to pronounce the Gaelic word, aside from scholars for
>professional reasons? As to "ta" (for goodbye), I think I've heard it
>pronounced "correctly" on TV shows.
Doesn't "ta" mean "thanks"?
Charles Riggs
Michael West
Charles Riggs <ri...@RemoveThiseircom.net> wrote in message
news:toVDOA7KHXNA3O...@4ax.com...
It certainly does in Oz.
--
Michael West
Melbourne, Australia
Donna Richoux
As best as I can tell, Americans heard the British saying "ta" and
"ta-ta" maybe a hundred years ago, and interpreted it as meaning
"good-bye." It's part of the traditional American stereotype of British
speech -- "I say, jolly good show, what?" Americans never really adopted
"ta" or "ta-ta" as their own.
I think we discussed this here once, but I can't remember if there was a
significant difference between "ta" and "ta-ta" to the British side.
--
Best wishes --- Donna Richoux
Brian J Goggin
[...]
>OK, I see I made a mistake by specifying "class". Would "education"
>work better? I don't want to get in too deep on this! It may be that
>the "t'ink" syndrome is indeed spuriously generated by stage Irishmen,
>as has been suggested elsewhere in this thread.
No, there is a basis to the observation, although it is played up by
those who like to see the world in stereotypes. I don't think
"education" is necessarily the right word either. It may be a matter
of deracination, distance from Irish, a distance that may be achieved
in several different ways, including exposure to British and American
media.
>Ya got me there. What occasion, to be fair, would they actually
>*have* to pronounce the Gaelic word, aside from scholars for
>professional reasons? As to "ta" (for goodbye), I think I've heard it
>pronounced "correctly" on TV shows.
The Irish word "ta' " (accent on the A) is not "ta" for thanks or
goodbye. It's pronounced like the English word "thaw", but it's
probably not very often needed by the Gall. However, "taoiseach" (in
which the T is only one of the challenges), the title of the Irish
prime minister, does crop up in political and journalistic circles.
bjg
Brian J Goggin
<mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
>My class doesn't say 'Ta'. We say 'Thank you'.
... especially when your trousers stay up.
bjg
Richard Fontana
>Michael West <mw...@remove.oz.quest.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Riggs <ri...@RemoveThiseircom.net> wrote in message
>> news:toVDOA7KHXNA3O...@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >
>> > >Ya got me there. What occasion, to be fair, would they actually
>> > >*have* to pronounce the Gaelic word, aside from scholars for
>> > >professional reasons? As to "ta" (for goodbye), I think I've heard it
>> > >pronounced "correctly" on TV shows.
>> >
>>
>> It certainly does in Oz.
>
>As best as I can tell, Americans heard the British saying "ta" and
>"ta-ta" maybe a hundred years ago, and interpreted it as meaning
>"good-bye." It's part of the traditional American stereotype of British
>speech -- "I say, jolly good show, what?" Americans never really adopted
>"ta" or "ta-ta" as their own.
We have to distinguish between "ta" and "ta-ta", which are two very
different words, though I suppose both come from baby-talk. I would
say that "ta-ta" for good-bye, while perhaps not now very popular in
the US, is thoroughly American-sounding to me, i.e. I'm sure I've heard
plenty of Americans use it, and I don't associate it with British speech
in particular, unlike expressions such as "jolly good". Do we even
know for certain that it is British in origin? (NSOED doesn't
say it is "orig. US", so perhaps we should assume that its origin is
indeed British.)
When I consider "ta-ta" in isolation, it does seem to me like the sort
of thing an upper-class person is more likely to say than a lower-class
person. I note that a primary American stereotype of a British person
is something like an intelligent, excessively civilized aristocrat, so
perhaps this is relevant. Still, the Americans I've known in
real life who have used "ta-ta" have not been aristocratic,
and such people seem to use "ta-ta" as an intentionally silly,
good-natured "goodbye", perhaps similar in spirit to other ancient
expressions like "see you later, alligator". Different from "bye-bye",
which is now a thoroughly ordinary sort of "good-bye" and must have lost
its baby-talk associations some time ago.[1]
The British "ta" meaning "thank you" is another matter. Despite its age,
this word is not used at all by Americans, nor is the usage well known to
those Americans who do not have much contact with British persons or
British culture. To the uninitiated American ear, I think, "ta" sounds
quite bizarre.
Can someone please explain to me why the online MWCD10 doesn't have an
entry for "ta-ta" or "tata" meaning "goodbye"? They do have an entry for
"ta" (which they label as "British").
Richard
[1]I remember seeing a "Family Circus" comic a long time ago, maybe
around 1980, which shows the father surrounded by his many small children
who are trying to get his attention, while he is busy on the phone with a
business associate. He ends the telephone conversation by saying "Bye-bye".
The guy at the other end has a puzzled look on his face and says to himself,
"'Bye-bye'?". I remember trying to figure out what the point of this
was, and I assumed that it must be that "bye-bye" is only used between
children or between parent and child. But my experience has been that
"bye-bye" is pretty much standard telephone usage, including in business
conversations.
Stephen Toogood
Fontana <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> writes
[ - ]
>
>We have to distinguish between "ta" and "ta-ta", which are two very
>different words, though I suppose both come from baby-talk. I would
>say that "ta-ta" for good-bye, while perhaps not now very popular in
>the US, is thoroughly American-sounding to me, i.e. I'm sure I've heard
>plenty of Americans use it, and I don't associate it with British speech
>in particular, unlike expressions such as "jolly good". Do we even
>know for certain that it is British in origin? (NSOED doesn't
>say it is "orig. US", so perhaps we should assume that its origin is
>indeed British.)
>
>When I consider "ta-ta" in isolation, it does seem to me like the sort
>of thing an upper-class person is more likely to say than a lower-class
>person.
I fear you are misguided on this occasion. Notwithstanding our efforts
not to think along the lines of class demarcation any more, ta-ta is
resolutely a working-class usage. Ta-ta is alive and well in various
parts of England and Wales, followed as often as not by a term of
endearment such as 'pet', 'duck' or 'luv'. Anyone resolved to watch a
British soap will find it peppered with the phrase. In pronunciation the
second t is so elided, whether in London, Manchester or Cardiff, that it
is indistinguishable from 'tarra', and indeed it is often transliterated
as such. I don't associate the phrase with Scotland at all, though I'm
open to correction.
>I note that a primary American stereotype of a British person
>is something like an intelligent, excessively civilized aristocrat, so
>perhaps this is relevant.
The ones who fifty years ago could afford to cross the pond...
>Still, the Americans I've known in
>real life who have used "ta-ta" have not been aristocratic,
[ - ]
>
>The British "ta" meaning "thank you" is another matter. Despite its age,
>this word is not used at all by Americans, nor is the usage well known to
>those Americans who do not have much contact with British persons or
>British culture. To the uninitiated American ear, I think, "ta" sounds
>quite bizarre.
I think it characteristic of 'ta' that a slightly sibilant t is usual.
This is pretty un-American, so 'bizarre' it may be, though since
'bizarre' is being done to death by all the bright young things at the
moment, do you mind awfully if I don't join you?
pip pip.
--
Stephen Toogood
Richard Fontana
I was thinking of the American usage of "ta-ta",
where the second 't' is as aspirated and t-like as the first. Here,
for some reason, it's easy for me to imagine some movie or television
character from the upper classes using the word, even though in real life
I've certainly heard "ta-ta" being used by members of the non-upper-classes.
At any rate, I'm certain that in the US "ta-ta" wouldn't be associated
with the working class in particular, and indeed the usage might be taken
as a sign that the user was not a member of the working class. Perhaps the
American "ta-ta" and the British "ta-ta" (tarra) are sufficiently different
(despite having the same meaning) that they should be considered different
words.
Richard
Polar
Fontana) wrote:
[..]
>[1]I remember seeing a "Family Circus" comic a long time ago, maybe
>around 1980, which shows the father surrounded by his many small children
>who are trying to get his attention, while he is busy on the phone with a
>business associate. He ends the telephone conversation by saying "Bye-bye".
>The guy at the other end has a puzzled look on his face and says to himself,
>"'Bye-bye'?". I remember trying to figure out what the point of this
>was, and I assumed that it must be that "bye-bye" is only used between
>children or between parent and child. But my experience has been that
>"bye-bye" is pretty much standard telephone usage, including in business
>conversations.
Not sure about "standard". I myself use "byeeee" with an up
then down inflection, rather than bye-bye, which *does* sound
faintly childish, and certainly very informal. I'd never use it
in a business conversation.
--
Polar
Rachel Meredith Kadelk-Garcia
>>
>>Third, most Englishpersons seem to be unable to pronounce the "t" in
>>Irish words like "ta'" and "taoiseach" correctly. Should we consider
>>that to be a class marker?
>
>*have* to pronounce the Gaelic word, aside from scholars for
>professional reasons? As to "ta" (for goodbye), I think I've heard it
>pronounced "correctly" on TV shows.
Different "ta'" -- that apostrophe's standing in for a fada (looks like
an acute accent) over the a. Irish (Gaelic) for "to be", present
positive indicative, any person. (Useful for things like "I am
happy" and "There is a big dog here"; for "I am a fruitcake" and similar,
you use the copula "is" rather than "ta'". /ta/ approximately, only it
uses a broad t.
Rachel
Donna Richoux
> We have to distinguish between "ta" and "ta-ta", which are two very
> different words, though I suppose both come from baby-talk.
Pure supposition, right? The American ta-ta did not come from American
babies, it came, as I said, from (incorrect) imitation of British
speech. The British ta, I imagine, is simply a old variant of "thanks,"
and I think this because the Scandinavians also say "tak" (tag?) in the
same manner. So I don't think it came from babies, either. More like
something preserved in a dialect.
I would
> say that "ta-ta" for good-bye, while perhaps not now very popular in
> the US, is thoroughly American-sounding to me, i.e. I'm sure I've heard
> plenty of Americans use it, and I don't associate it with British speech
> in particular, unlike expressions such as "jolly good". Do we even
> know for certain that it is British in origin?
My goodness, what a doubting Thomas you are. All right, would you
believe the Pocket Dictionary of American Slang (1968):
ta-ta: Interjection. Good-bye. Some use since c1895. Usually jocular, as
it is associated with English use and is considered an affectation.
[snip]
> The British "ta" meaning "thank you" is another matter. Despite its age,
> this word is not used at all by Americans, nor is the usage well known to
> those Americans who do not have much contact with British persons or
> British culture. To the uninitiated American ear, I think, "ta" sounds
> quite bizarre.
I agree with that. I never heard of "ta" until I met some British
exchange students in college, and hardly ever since.
[snip]
> But my experience has been that "bye-bye" is pretty much standard
> telephone usage, including in business conversations.
I think it's changed in the last ten years or so, but prior to that,
"bye-bye" was considered childish
--
Best --- Donna Richoux.
Skitt
Donna Richoux <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1e23jyc.1jnju81dskojiN%tr...@euronet.nl...
> Richard Fontana <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote:
> > But my experience has been that "bye-bye" is pretty much standard
> > telephone usage, including in business conversations.
>
> I think it's changed in the last ten years or so, but prior to that,
> "bye-bye" was considered childish
Yeah, no thanks to the flight attendants.
Bye-bye now.
--
Skitt (on Florida's Space Coast) http://i.am/skitt/
... information is gushing toward your brain like a fire hose aimed
at a teacup. -- Dogbert
Richard Fontana
>Richard Fontana <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote:
>
>> We have to distinguish between "ta" and "ta-ta", which are two very
>> different words, though I suppose both come from baby-talk.
>
>Pure supposition, right? The American ta-ta did not come from American
>babies, it came, as I said, from (incorrect) imitation of British
>speech. The British ta, I imagine, is simply a old variant of "thanks,"
>and I think this because the Scandinavians also say "tak" (tag?) in the
>same manner. So I don't think it came from babies, either. More like
>something preserved in a dialect.
But you're assuming that "ta"=thanks and "ta-ta"=good-bye are related.
I'm suggesting that they may not be. Moreover, NSOED/93 says that
"ta"=thanks is from "Childish form of /thank you/". For "ta-ta" they
have a separate listing, which they date to E19 ("ta" is older), and
they say "Origin unkn.; cf. earlier DA-DA". Now I didn't know this
till just now, but there's a word in NSOED/93, "da-da", which means
"Goodbye"; it is described as "nursery & colloq." but "Origin unkn."
"Da-da" is dated to L17-M18.
Now I can accept that "ta-ta" in American English came from imitation
of British speech; but I think that a baby-talk derivation of
"ta-ta" is possible, much as it is the origin of "bye-bye"; and,
going by the NSOED/93 people, the (unrelated?) "ta" may
very well derive from a babyish pronunciation of "thanks" or
"thank you".
Richard
Richard Fontana
>Donna Richoux provides, so far as material:
>>Richard Fontana <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> We have to distinguish between "ta" and "ta-ta", which are two very
>>> different words, though I suppose both come from baby-talk.
>>
>>Pure supposition, right? The American ta-ta did not come from American
>>babies, it came, as I said, from (incorrect) imitation of British
>>speech. The British ta, I imagine, is simply a old variant of "thanks,"
>>and I think this because the Scandinavians also say "tak" (tag?) in the
>>same manner. So I don't think it came from babies, either. More like
>>something preserved in a dialect.
>
>But you're assuming that "ta"=thanks and "ta-ta"=good-bye are related.
>I'm suggesting that they may not be.
I misread Donna's posting -- it doesn't look like she said that at all.
Sorry.
Richard
Einde O'Callaghan
> >>"t'ink instead of "think" was a class marker.
> >>
> >>Do you mean that people from other parts of Ireland don't use that
> >>locution? And is it or not a class marker?
> >
> >Big subject; we could be here till Christmas.
> >
> >Three points. First, there are many different local accents in
> >Ireland. Even within Dublin, there are (or were) several traditional
> >accents and there are some new ones as well.
> >
> >Second, much depends on how you define class. If you take a class
> >system based on closeness to the British throne, you will find that
> >few of the dukes and earls and such spoke (recently) in Dublin
> >accents. If you take one based on wealth and power, you will find
> >several millionaires and powerful persons speaking with Dublin accents
> >or Cork accents or Donegal accents. Or even, God between us and all
> >harm, Kerry accents. At present, one of the most powerful men in the
> >country is Jackie Healy-Rae. His accent is a thing of beauty.
> >Indecipherable, but beauteous.
> >
> >Irish words like "ta'" and "taoiseach" correctly. Should we consider
> >that to be a class marker?
>
>
apostrophe after the "a" to represent the accented "á", known in Irish
as "a fada", which denotes a long "a". This word "tá" is one of the
three present tense forms of the verb "to be".
This Gaelic "t" is pronounced quite differently to the English "t". The
IPA symbol for this sound is a "t" with a "~" through the middle. I
don't know how we would represent that in ASCII IPA.
Incidentally the long "a" is represented by "a:" in IPA.
--
eo'c
Einde O'Callaghan
arrived from my server.
Charles Riggs schrieb:
>
> On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:36:47 GMT, sme...@mindspring.com (Polar) wrote:
>
> >Ya got me there. What occasion, to be fair, would they actually
> >*have* to pronounce the Gaelic word, aside from scholars for
> >professional reasons? As to "ta" (for goodbye), I think I've heard it
> >pronounced "correctly" on TV shows.
>
They may not have to pronounce "tá", but it would be rather nice if BBC
newsreaders could get the pronunciation of the word "Taoiseach" right,
instead of saying saying something like "tee-shock" (which sounds like a
disturbing golfing term). Apparently, the BBC is supposed to have a
whole department devoted to finding out the correct pronunciation of
names and titles from lesser known countries and languages.
Unfortunately, they don't seem to consider that necessary when dealing
with the neighbouring country, which even though it's inhabitants speak
English better than the English themselves <joke, in case you take that
point seriously seriously> has the "quaint" custom of using some words
and titles from the first official national language of the country
> Doesn't "ta" mean "thanks"?
>
In the second official national language of Ireland, yes. I believe that
in some parts of the English-speaking worls it can also mean "bye". For
more information on this see other posts in this thread.
P.S. Where do you apply for a licence to use the occasional smiley in
this newsgroup?
--
eo'c
Michael West
"Richard Fontana" <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote in message
news:slrn847ujt....@localhost.localdomain...
> Stephen Toogood provides, so far as material:
> >In article <slrn847k32....@localhost.localdomain>, Richard
> >Fontana <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> writes
> >[ - ]
> >>
very
would
> >>say that "ta-ta" for good-bye, while perhaps not now very popular
in
> >>the US, is thoroughly American-sounding to me, i.e. I'm sure I've
heard
> >>plenty of Americans use it, and I don't associate it with British
speech
> >>in particular, unlike expressions such as "jolly good". Do we
even
"Ta-tas" is also, among certain uncouth elements of American malehood,
a fanciful variant of "titties".
Have you heard, "She got some bodacious ta-tas"?
--
Michael West
"Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1e23jyc.1jnju81dskojiN%tr...@euronet.nl...
> Richard Fontana <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote:
>
very
> > different words, though I suppose both come from baby-talk.
>
American
> babies, it came, as I said, from (incorrect) imitation of British
> speech. The British ta, I imagine, is simply a old variant of
"thanks,"
> and I think this because the Scandinavians also say "tak" (tag?) in
the
> same manner. So I don't think it came from babies, either. More like
> something preserved in a dialect.
>
> > say that "ta-ta" for good-bye, while perhaps not now very popular
in
> > the US, is thoroughly American-sounding to me, i.e. I'm sure I've
heard
> > plenty of Americans use it, and I don't associate it with British
speech
> > in particular, unlike expressions such as "jolly good". Do we
even
> > know for certain that it is British in origin?
>
> believe the Pocket Dictionary of American Slang (1968):
>
> ta-ta: Interjection. Good-bye. Some use since c1895. Usually
jocular, as
> it is associated with English use and is considered an affectation.
>
I never heard "ta-ta" used by an American except as a deliberate,
jocular imitation of stereotypical English upper-class speech. I'm not
suggesting the stereotype is accurate, by the way. We did it when we
were kids in Chicago, along with "old chap" and "I say!" and "all that
rot" and all that rot. Where we got it from, I don't know. Vaudeville,
by way of movies and television, I would guess.
Donna Richoux
> I (RF) just wrote:
> >Donna Richoux provides, so far as material:
> >>Richard Fontana <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>> We have to distinguish between "ta" and "ta-ta", which are two very
> >>> different words, though I suppose both come from baby-talk.
> >>
> >>Pure supposition, right? The American ta-ta did not come from American
> >>babies, it came, as I said, from (incorrect) imitation of British
> >>speech. The British ta, I imagine, is simply a old variant of "thanks,"
> >>and I think this because the Scandinavians also say "tak" (tag?) in the
> >>same manner. So I don't think it came from babies, either. More like
> >>something preserved in a dialect.
> >
> >But you're assuming that "ta"=thanks and "ta-ta"=good-bye are related.
> >I'm suggesting that they may not be.
>
> I misread Donna's posting -- it doesn't look like she said that at all.
> Sorry.
Uh, well, I appreciate your correction, but you weren't so far wrong.
Maybe I did not say there that ta and ta-ta were related, but I
certainly wondered and I may have implied it elsewhere.
I'm glad you backed up what you said about baby-talk with some
references. Actually, I don't know what to believe for sure, except for
the bit about the Yanks imitating the Brits and thinking it meant
goodbye. Maybe it did mean goodbye, back then. There are so many
variables. Whether the British had a word ta-ta as well as ta, whether
that ta-ta meant thanks or goodbye, whether 19th century usage was
significantly different than current, whether it was class-related,
age-related -- it's all a muddle to me.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
D+ Ash
"Richard Fontana" <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote:
: a baby-talk derivation of
: "ta-ta" is possible, much as it is the origin of "bye-bye"; and,
: going by the NSOED/93 people, the (unrelated?) "ta" may
: very well derive from a babyish pronunciation of "thanks" or
: "thank you".
An interesting little refinement in all this: in my early childhood in
London, "bye bye" and "ta ta" meant the same thing. But to "go bye byes"
meant to go to sleep, whereas to "go ta ta's" meant to go out (for a walk,
shopping etc). -- D+
William Lieblich
>
[...]
>
> "Ta-tas" is also, among certain uncouth elements of American malehood,
> a fanciful variant of "titties".
>
> Have you heard, "She got some bodacious ta-tas"?
I have. Richard Gere's friend (the one who killed himself) said it in
"An Officer and a Gentleman." And he was a gentleman, not at all
uncouth. (Or perhaps he was *training* to be a gentleman, and killed
himself when he realized he wouldn't make the grade, partly because of
his uncouth language usage. It's really a matter of interpretation. Some
movies are like that.)
--
Bill Lieblich
a1a5...@sprint.ca
<einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
[ ]
>This Gaelic "t" is pronounced quite differently to the English "t". The
>IPA symbol for this sound is a "t" with a "~" through the middle.
>eo'c
>
>
That should do it.
M.J.Powell
<einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> writes
>don't know how we would represent that in ASCII IPA.
>
>Incidentally the long "a" is represented by "a:" in IPA.
It was a joke.
--
M.J.Powell
Anandashankar Mazumdar
Einde O'Callaghan <einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
> This Gaelic "t" is pronounced quite differently to the English "t".
> The IPA symbol for this sound is a "t" with a "~" through the middle.
> I don't know how we would represent that in ASCII IPA.
I was under the impression that the "broad t" in Gaelic was like a
"dental t" (t[). This is a dangerous question to ask in a text medium,
but how do I make the sound? I think I've got most of the other Gaelic
consonants, although I haven't been able to find an actual Gaelic
speaker to test them out on.
Ananda
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Sam Melton
although his father and brother had been pilots. The American military
officer ranks were once viewed as a path for rising in social status.
Although the euphemism was immediately understandable (context and
all), I don't remember hearing it prior to this movie. But I think the
line was so effective in the movie that it introduced the term into
general usage rather quickly.
V/R
Sam Melton
a1a5...@sprint.ca
<mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <3844434F...@planet-interkom.de>, Einde O'Callaghan
>>This Gaelic "t" is pronounced quite differently to the English "t". The
>>IPA symbol for this sound is a "t" with a "~" through the middle. I
>>don't know how we would represent that in ASCII IPA.
>>
>>Incidentally the long "a" is represented by "a:" in IPA.
>
>It was a joke.
>
>--
>M.J.Powell
I know. Nearly everybody knew. But you had not then been warned by
his "t with the ~ through its middle" . The Irish do so hate stuff
that looks barbed; stuck with it, so to speak.
Einde O'Callaghan
>
> In article <3844434F...@planet-interkom.de>, Einde O'Callaghan
> <einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> writes
> >M.J.Powell schrieb:
> >>
> >> In article <aqn54skdjjku4fi5h...@4ax.com>, Brian J Goggin
> >> <b...@wordwrights.ie> writes
<snip a lot of stuff>
> >> >Third, most Englishpersons seem to be unable to pronounce the "t" in
> >> >Irish words like "ta'" and "taoiseach" correctly. Should we consider
> >> >that to be a class marker?
> >>
> >> My class doesn't say 'Ta'. We say 'Thank you'.
> >>
> >If you look closely you'll notice that Brian wrote "ta'", using the
> >apostrophe after the "a" to represent the accented "á", known in Irish
> >as "a fada", which denotes a long "a". This word "tá" is one of the
> >three present tense forms of the verb "to be".
> >
> >This Gaelic "t" is pronounced quite differently to the English "t". The
> >IPA symbol for this sound is a "t" with a "~" through the middle. I
> >don't know how we would represent that in ASCII IPA.
> >
> >Incidentally the long "a" is represented by "a:" in IPA.
>
> It was a joke.
>
I must say that I suspected so after I pushed the send button. And a
very successful jokee, too, if I may say so. Certainly a productive one
to judge by the long and interesting discussion of "ta", "ta-ta" and
their derivatives that resulted from it.
Cheers
--
eo'c
Einde O'Callaghan
>
> In article <3844434F...@planet-interkom.de>,
> Einde O'Callaghan <einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
>
> > This Gaelic "t" is pronounced quite differently to the English "t".
> > The IPA symbol for this sound is a "t" with a "~" through the middle.
> > I don't know how we would represent that in ASCII IPA.
>
> "dental t" (t[). This is a dangerous question to ask in a text medium,
> but how do I make the sound? I think I've got most of the other Gaelic
> consonants, although I haven't been able to find an actual Gaelic
> speaker to test them out on.
>
with the Gaelic "broad t". Can you point me towards a sound file where I
can hear it? I'll listen to it and I'll try tell you if it sounds the
same.
I should point out that the way I pronounce it is more alveolar than
dental. I wouldn't describe myself as a native speaker. Ispoke Gaelic as
well as English before I went to school, but stopped speaking it after I
started school because the other kids in the school made fun of me - I
was the only bilingual kid in the class.
I learned it again in school, but unfortunately during my school time I
was taught three different dialects. First of all, for the first 3
school years I was taught Connacht Irish (also the dialect I spoke
before I went to school); then for the remainder of primary school I
learned Ulster Irish (because we moved to Donegal). Then in secondary
school I was taught the newly introduced Standard Irish.
Despite this I was quite fluent and was a fairly accomplished debater in
the language. Since leaving school I've had very little opportunity to
do anything other than read the odd article or poem. My active
vocabulary has shrunk drastically, but my passive understanding is still
adequate, provided the people don't speak too fast. Nevertheless, I
think I still have an ear for the language and can produce the sounds of
the language accurately, i.e. without an anglicised accent.
--
eo'c
--
eo'c
Bob Cunningham
<einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> said:
>Anandashankar Mazumdar schrieb:
>> In article <3844434F...@planet-interkom.de>,
>> Einde O'Callaghan <einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
>> > This Gaelic "t" is pronounced quite differently to the English "t".
>> > The IPA symbol for this sound is a "t" with a "~" through the middle.
>> > I don't know how we would represent that in ASCII IPA.
>> I was under the impression that the "broad t" in Gaelic was like a
>> "dental t" (t[). This is a dangerous question to ask in a text medium,
>> but how do I make the sound? I think I've got most of the other Gaelic
>> consonants, although I haven't been able to find an actual Gaelic
>> speaker to test them out on.
>Since I don't know how a "dental t" is pronounced I can't compare it
>with the Gaelic "broad t". Can you point me towards a sound file where I
>can hear it? I'll listen to it and I'll try tell you if it sounds the
>same.
I assume that 'dental t' refers to the 't' that I was taught to use
when I was learning to pronounce both Spanish and Russian? That
'dental t' starts with the tip of the tongue touching the back of the
upper teeth, as opposed to my English 't', which starts with the tip
of the tongue touching the alveolar ridge. I know of no other
difference between the two. I think it would be correct to call the
Spanish 't' a dental plosive and my English 't' an alveolar plosive.
How would you describe in a similar way the mechanics of pronouncing
the Gaelic broad 't'? You say later on that it's alveolar. Is it
fricative? Plosive? What else can you say about it?
Brian J Goggin
Donovan) wrote:
[...]
>You could have a look at World Radio Network <http://www.wrn.org/>. It's
>been a while since I was there, but they had links to a number of radio
>broadcasts on the Internet (mostly using RealAudio format). Radio Dublin
>was among them last I checked.
RTE, the national radio station (three channels, mostly in English but
with some Irish) is at http://www.rte.ie/; RealAudio available.
Some RealAudio Irish-language programmes from Raidio na Gaeltachta on
http://www.rnag.ie/gaeilge/misc/realaud.html
bjg
Donna Richoux
> Richard Fontana writes:
> >We have to distinguish between "ta" and "ta-ta", which are two very
> >different words, though I suppose both come from baby-talk. I would
> >say that "ta-ta" for good-bye, while perhaps not now very popular in
> >the US, is thoroughly American-sounding to me, i.e. I'm sure I've
>
> In Australia, the thankyou and goodbye meanings likewise apply. But the
> pronunciations here would be more like "tar" and "tat-tar".
The problem is, the way we American readers would pronouce "tar" is
probably nothing like the way you would pronounce "tar."
I suppose you could try "tah" -- are "tar' and "tah" the same to you?
The problem is, "tah" and "ta" are the same to me, so I really don't get
your point.
The ASCII IPA chart and sound files at http://go.to/aue might, repeat,
might help. No guarantees.
--
Best --- Donna Richoux
Sara Moffat Lorimer
> Storekeeper: Here are your purchases, Mr Savage.
Not "Here you go, John"? That's it, I'm moving to Australia.
--
SML
Queens, New York
John Savage
>We have to distinguish between "ta" and "ta-ta", which are two very
>different words, though I suppose both come from baby-talk. I would
>say that "ta-ta" for good-bye, while perhaps not now very popular in
In Australia, the thankyou and goodbye meanings likewise apply. But the
pronunciations here would be more like "tar" and "tat-tar".
While originally acquired through baby-talk, tar is retained by some
throughout life, to plug those interactive moments when courtesy invites
a vocal response but the unabridged form would sound too stilted, awkwardly
repetitious, or more effusive and insincere than circumstances warrant.
Storekeeper: Here are your purchases, Mr Savage.
Me: Thankyou.
Storekeeper: There's your receipt.
Me: Thanks.
Storekeeper: And your credit card.
Me: Tar.
[Well, it is *my* card, after all, so I'm not about to get all gushy
about just having it handed back.]
--
John Savage (for email, replace "ks" with "k" and delete "n")
Michael West
> John Savage <rook...@suburbian.com.au> wrote:
>
> > Richard Fontana writes:
> > >We have to distinguish between "ta" and "ta-ta", which are
two very
> > >different words, though I suppose both come from baby-talk.
I would
> > >say that "ta-ta" for good-bye, while perhaps not now very
popular in
> > >the US, is thoroughly American-sounding to me, i.e. I'm sure
I've
> >
apply. But the
> > pronunciations here would be more like "tar" and "tat-tar".
>
"tar" is
> probably nothing like the way you would pronounce "tar."
>
> I suppose you could try "tah" -- are "tar' and "tah" the same
to you?
> The problem is, "tah" and "ta" are the same to me, so I really
don't get
> your point.
>
> The ASCII IPA chart and sound files at http://go.to/aue might,
repeat,
> might help. No guarantees.
>
You're right. Many Aussies would probably interpret the spelling
'ta-ta' as having the same vowel as 'wag' , whereas a Yank would
supply the vowel as in 'far'.
Aussies insert the 'r' when they want to make a phonetic spelling
that 'shortens' the vowel. Thus, American "tah" is equal to
Aussie "tar."
An Aussie would have to work at it to pronounce "tar" the way
most Americans would -- wrapping the tongue around that terminal
'r'.
I remember that during my first weeks here, I would often be in
some public place with a gaggle of other yanks, talking, and
suddenly we'd notice some Aussies nearby mimicking us (not quite
out of earshot) by making what they thought was a hilarious
whirring noise -- "rahrahrahrahrahrah"
Michael West
Sara Moffat Lorimer <sl...@XXXXXcolumbia.edu> wrote in message
news:sl560-07129...@dialup-1-86.cc.columbia.edu...
> John Savage <rook...@suburbian.com.au> wrote:
>
> > Storekeeper: Here are your purchases, Mr Savage.
Hardly. Try "No worries."
> Not "Here you go, John"? That's it, I'm moving to Australia.
Jody Bilyeu
news:V6g34.730$E4....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
This custom, in a phonetic spelling on an album sleeve,
resulted in an entire generation of Americans mispronouncing
Sade's name. Avoiding one mispronunciation, to suffer
another.
"No need to ahsk..."
Cheers,
Jody
John Savage
> John Savage <rook...@suburbian.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Storekeeper: Here are your purchases, Mr Savage.
>
Sorry--I lied. Let me run through it again:-
Checkout chick: 'ere ya go.
Me: Thankyou.
Checkout chick: 'ere's ya change.
Me: Thanks.
Checkout chick: Wanchya receipt?
Me: Ta.
Checkout chick: See ya laida!
Me: